I am not living in an illusion, anyone who is outside of Christ, is at emnity with God. This is regardless of whether they are morally nice people or not. You know for a fact the nice person might be a child abuser, and if I were to tell you it were so some time ago, about 4 years and the person moved away, and returned a reformed person, it would hard to believe. However, as a believer in Jesus, and by that I mean a child of God, I cannot follow my base instincts and live as my lower nature dictates, the higher law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus compels me to live as Christ lived. That is it. Christ within. There is no tag team here, just you me and ....you guessed it....Jesus.

Whenever on looks at God and says was He wrong or right, you have one huge problem in the Theology, you have to start with mankind, and our nature. Their is one thing that Calvin and Ariminians agreed with and that was the total depravity of man. I do not need to establish the fact of human depravity, I read some of your other threads and you certainly have a great command of those facts. Now looking at God in that light. It should not be hard to understand that mankind were continually pushing the limits of the boundaries. I only have one right now that keeps recurring, it is the time when the angels interferred in the affairs of mankind, and the flood came only sparing Noah and his family and the animals. The rest were drowned, a pretty harsh judgment, that was God. This did not change the nature of mankind, still we continue to drive God to the limits, and the result is death. Not pretty at all, but then we are not pretty at all. This could take really long, so if you can speed me to which page you are on, if we are still on the same page, I will be happy to share my crumbs, and they are crumbs. Sorry, one last crumb, Peter describes that though there will never be a flood again, their is something a lot worse coming and that is the total destruction of this planet and the entire Universe, it will be consumed by intense heat....that is God. Paul describes God as an all consuming fire.

discuss the Nature of God. Old Testament to New Testament.

aeryck you are correct! I am game and I think that we all we find out some interesting truths about God.

Why don't you start it?

preach

Okay, coming to the New Testament, I can only suggest that a step by step look at the book of Romans will grant us the understand of how this Wrath is dealt with in Christ. But honestly I believe that Baker has been waiting. So I am going to leave the two of you to chat, I got to get sleep. Will pick up tommorrow.

Believe what you like, Aeryck, it makes no difference to me. Just admit you use your God-given brain to rate the importance of those segments of the word of God.

When you say that war is wrong, that killing unbelievers is wrong, that capital punishment is wrong, then you stand in direct opposition to acts that the Bible says God ordered and enacted Himself. I support you in that as far as thinking for yourself. I just don't like being told I "hate God" when I do the same thing.

What? You don't hate God. That you agree that God dispensed his Justice correctly right up unitl the time of Jesus? And Jesus taught us that war, killing and hatred were fine if we were protecting what was ours? Or something along those lines....

No, you choose to believe that Jesus washed away the Old Testament. I support you in your right to decide for yourself. I support your right to believe that I am "at enmity with God".

Don't sit back and assume people will tolerate you condemning THEM for picking and choosing what they think was washed away. I hope you'll go on over to the blog I link above and let Preacherman know how you feel about his beliefs on capital punishment. At least I won't be alone in "hating God" for a bit...

I do not believe that Jesus washed the Old Testament away. Infact quite the contrary, he came to bring a glorius understanding of the law. Instead of do not kill, do not hate. Instead of no adultery, no lust. Being at emnity with God is only our position as long as we are outside of Christ. I do not know that I am confident to believe that someone who rejects the teachings of Christ is anywhere else but at emnity with God. It is not an accusation it is a fact. We are all at emnity with God, only in Jesus Christ is the wrath of God ended. The judgment however, seems to not be stopped, for we as you correctly and do not need to continually remind me have the choice. We have the ability to choose, but this can be diminished if we reject the conviction of sin, and disobedience to the Word of God, something you have done with your intellect, but rejecting the teaching of Jesus on how we should live in this world. It is your choice, though not a wise one, and for that you will have to account to God, and not to me.

Dodge, dodge, dodge. Do you or don't you think Capital punishment and war is wrong? Please, grow some guts and answer the question.

If government institutes capital punishment for the protectection of the society, then yes, it is law, who's image is on the coin? Christ said render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar. If you remember when we discussed the article "Is Captial Punishment Non-Christian?" I stated that it was the governments responsiblity to protect good and punish evil. To which we (you and me) agreed.

The purpose of the article was to discuss governments obligation in protecting it's society from evil. In Romans chpt 13 Paul said that if and when government enforces capital punishment it is okay. If you remember in the article I also said that it is the law's responsibility not the church.

What we see today is many people stand against the clear doctrine of the law, and they supposedly do it for the cause of Chirst. I may be wrong but I believe in many of these instances that if Christ were living He would say render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar. If the law is clear cut on it's punishment to protect it's society from evil, then they do not bear the sword in vain. But I must preface this opinion that the Lord has given us His Spirit, to him that esteemeth something is wrong, it is wrong. It is wise for one to follow the leading of God's word with direction from His Spirit.

It would be like the government saying that if a preacher preaches against particular sin, he is at risk of imprisonment, and I preach against that sin, then the law beareth not the sword in vain. I go to prision. I fully understand the consequences of the law. If I argue with it's judgment, the obey.... everything will be okay!

WHy not just admit that you reject God's actions in the Old Testament? Wouldn't it feel better to be honest? God commanded the deaths of people simply because they worshipped other Gods, Aeryk. Was God wrong?

baker I told you in the article that I do not understand why God always did what He did and to be honest, I have to, because He know our heart anyway, I did not always agree with the way He did things.... but if you remember... His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts... but I will state today, He is never wrong.

baker my concern is that you are attempting to sow discord among the brethren... Proverbs 6:19
Baker I hope that you are not attempting to pit me and aeryck against each other for the cause of sowing discord. If you will go back and notice the discussion between you, aeryck and me, you have tried to pit me against aeryck, but not once has aeryck attempted to pit us against each other. Prayerfully consider.

preacherman

"baker my concern is that you are attempting to sow discord among the brethren... Proverbs 6:19"

So, when I differ with someone who professes to be a Christian, it is "sowing discord". When Aeryck does so, it is, I suppose, righteous judgement. I have told Aeryck that I accept that his beliefs are different than mine. I told him that the very first time I ever strayed into his blog.

He, on the other hand, has told me many times that I haven't truly accepted God. that I "hate God", etc., etc. If that isn't trying to cause a rift between Christians, what is? I accept his profession of salvation, I accept that he can believe as he does and still love God. I don't get the same respect in return.

That was the first problem I ever had with you guys, and it persists, and I tolerate it as much as I can.

It's funny, that after a month of me trying to get you guys to temper your treatment of fellow Christians that don't believe the the same as you, that you'd stand here and try to accuse ME of causing division.

I do think it is a bit hypocritical for Aeryck to be sitting here calling me Hitler for something preacherman believes as well. If you want to call that causing division, then maybe so. I just like all the Hitlers to be defined fairly, instead of tolerance to one and hate to another.

Once again you are talking to no-one else but myself and Preach. I have only had one point, and that is that a disciple of Jesus follows the teaching of Jesus. That teaching is very clear and simple even child could understand it, and they do, but you don't. We are commanded to love one another, and that includes loving our enemies, not hating or killing them. End of point. As to Preacherman explaining to you what he wants that is between you an him, and you have covered so much ground already that I do not even know. I personally have a view which you do not agree with. Preacherman has many views that I do not agree with. But one thing that needs to be established, and that is the first common ground, are we all agreed that we are sinners.[I refer back to the unifying truth that has been long established between Calvanism and Arianism, the total depravity of man.] The second one is, do we all acknowledge that faith in Christ alone is the only way of achieving right standig with God. I have no more to offer and shall see how this thread has gone, when I return.

I got to get sleep. Will pick up tommorrow.

Goodnight my friend.

preach

Take care both of you, remember what Jesus said, 'My peace I give unto you, not as the world giveth I give unto you......." Sleep tight, don't let the frogs keep you awake.

I hope you'll go on over to the blog I link above and let Preacherman know how you feel about his beliefs on capital punishment. At least I won't be alone in "hating God" for a bit...

My friend baker this is what I am talking about.

We are commanded to love one another, and that includes loving our enemies, not hating or killing them.

To this amen. I love you both.

But one thing that needs to be established, and that is the first common ground, are we all agreed that we are sinners.

To this amen. The mercy and grace of God is sufficient.

preacherman