The Word of God

on Dec 04, 2004

Marcie Helen: "I take it literally. I don't try and peel off all the "messages" and "codes" in the Bible...because I don't think there are any. What kind of God would God be if His word had to be interpreted? I also don't that God would allow His word to be mis-translated."

You are missing the point. I would recommend that you read the article I wrote in my blog site entitled "Targeting Gays: A History of Oppression, Part II; Morality or Selective Application of Religious Doctrines?" to get a better understanding of what I am talking about. The fact is that the original text of the Bible was written in ancient languages over 2000 years ago and it HAS been translated and mistranslated over the centuries. It's a fact...a little research will make that fact perfectly clear to you.

"I think if you take a generally-accepted version of the Bible...like the NIV, NRSV, NKJV, or the KJV, they're going to be really really close to what the Hebrew and Greek said."

Nothing could be further from the truth...they are NOT really, really , close and certain words....crucial words have been mistranslated which gives them a completely different meaning.

"God says that certain things, like homosexuality, are wrong for a reason."

My argument is that God never said this at all...read my article.

"can you say PHARISEE?" Yes. I already have.

"But he also had people to fall back on...people of faith...his disciples...you know? We have to be out there in the world with unbelievers...but we also have to have that place where we can go and get refreshed ourselves so we can go back out into the world...you know? And Jesus said told people that their sin was wrong...but He offered them a way out."

Yes, and the disciples were not perfect either yet Jesus embraced them. He did not judge them, call them criminals, abominations. You do have a place where you can go and refresh yourselves....your church and each other. Jesus OFFERED a way out...he didn't mandate it or force it on anyone via governmental laws. Show me where Jesus advocated mandating his teachings via Roman or Hebrew law? You can't...so why is the Church/religious leaders so concerned with legislating morality via the U.S. government? I think it is your right to believe whatever you want to believe...I don't think it is your right to demand that the rest of the nation obey your interpretation of the Bible via legislation.

17

T_Bone4Justice

on Dec 04, 2004

Marcie Helen: "I think in our society we just come up with circumstances where sin is okay...and we grow more and more accepting of sinful behavior. I mean...look at murder! There's lots of times now where it's okay to kill someone or its more okay than it was 50 years ago...like you were drunk/high so you didn't know what you were doing...self defense...etc. etc. I don't know...I'm playing the devil's advocate a little (ehehehe)...but its true...right?"

There is NOTHING in the law that says "murder" is o.k. and being drunk/high is not a legal defense. It could be a mitigating circumstance but not a defense for murder. I would also challenge your comparison of homosexuality with murder...there is simply no comparison whatsoever. It's a false comparison...a red herring. The point is that YOUR interpretation of what behavior is sinful or not sinful is exactly that...YOUR interpretation. You think homosexuality is a sin...I and many others do not. There is no "crime" being committed by a person being gay.

18

kingbee

on Dec 04, 2004

the disciples were not perfect either yet Jesus embraced them

and they were guys too right? hmmmm

19

T_Bone4Justice

on Dec 04, 2004

preacherman: "God can reveal His word to anyone. I agree, it seems we live in a society that has found every reason to tolerate what the Bible has said is wrong."

God can reveal His word to anyone...so what makes you think that God didn't reveal His word to me? The operative word here is "reveal" not mandate. The reason we live in a society where we "tolerate" behavior that the Bible says is wrong is because we have a little document called the U.S. Constitution which gives each of us the right to choose which religion to believe in or to choose not to believe in any religion at all. It's about freedom of choice....free will. We simply cannot legally mandate a particular Chruch's or person's "morality" on all of society.

20

T_Bone4Justice

on Dec 04, 2004

"we have homosexuality and other issues forced on us, and we're ostrascized because we don't think its "right"...and it's because it's more and more talked about...and therefore, accepted. Granted, I don't have that much experience with people who are homosexual. The contact with homosexuals that I've had has been very positive. I guess what burns me is when a person's sexuality is all-consuming. A homosexual walks up to you and says "Hi, my name's Terry, and I'm gay."

Hmmm...Where to begin. Please give me one example of how homosexuality is being "forced" on you via the government? No one is forcing you to think or accept anything. If it is more and more talked about isn't that a good thing? Is talking worse than ignorance or bigotry? I am not suggesting that you are either of those things but what harm is there in TALKING about something other than it might actually make someone THINK.

You say that your experiences with gays are both limited and positive so what makes you think that gays automatically introduce themselves with the qualifier that they are gay? I have lived all around the world and I have NEVER had a person introduce themselves to me saying "Hi, I am so and so and I am gay." If this does happen on occasion then why can't you just ignore it? There are many people on this planet who do things that offend me such as this: "Hi, I'm so and so....I do such and such for a living." The implication of course being that they are either important, wealthy or both. I find this annoying but I don't feel that arrogance is being forced down my throat because of a few idiots out there who introduce themselves to me that way.

21

T_Bone4Justice

on Dec 04, 2004

Philomedy: "I don't know if I would say that homosexuals are "obviously hurting," and if they are, I think a large part of that hurt must come from being shunned by society. I don't think they would feel any relief from any attempts to "correct" them, gentle or otherwise."

I believe you have just hit the nail squarely on the head.

22

preacherman

on Dec 04, 2004

I appreciate the discussion and it has been an interesting one to say the least, but I have noticed something that I would light to bring to light. This thread started out as a discussion around the "importance of God's Word on the Church today". It appears the discussion has moved in the direction of what influeence should the Word of God have on a nation's society, or maybe someone who does not even believe in God?

Some of the responses have directed the discussion about Biblical Truths mandating a nations values. Don't you think the values of a people dictate the direction of the nation... we kind'a saw it in the election this past November. The Democrates thought that the war, jobs, economics, etc.... would be the focal point of getting the upper hand and discounted that a vast majority of the people still have a high expectation for the moral issues that seem to be undermining our society, of which the marriage of homosexuals, sodimites.. or what ever a society calls them. With the overwhelming opposition, in states where the issue was on the ballet, voted not to recognize it is an indication that something fueled their beliefs. What was the source of their will?

That is the purpose of the Word of God. When the Word and His Spirit do it's work in the Church it has to carry over into our society.. everyday life. I see it is hard for someone to hide, for very long, strong convictions whether they are political or Spiritual. So the question is, "how important is the Word of God for the church today"?

I realize for the unrepentant reprobate there is no conviction or desire to know and live the Word of God- but how about the church?

preacherman

23

InfoGeek

on Dec 04, 2004

how important is the Word of God for the church today"?

Which church and which word of God? The Evangelical chuch, Baptist, Roman Catholic or are you accepting any Christian Denomination?

Whch word of God? Are you speaking about literalist interpretation of the Bible, a more cultural/time it was written interpretaion, or the general moral guideline interepretation (golden rule type)?

IG

24

philomedy

on Dec 04, 2004

Don't you think the values of a people dictate the direction of the nation...

Yes, but values are different from religion, and if they aren't, they should be.

That is the purpose of the Word of God. When the Word and His Spirit do it's work in the Church it has to carry over into our society.. everyday life

It has to carry over into everyday social life, not everyday political life. This is a republic, not a theocracy.

I realize for the unrepentant reprobate there is no conviction or desire to know and live the Word of God- but how about the church?

You know, there is a way to not live the Word of God and not be an unrepentant reprobate all at the same time.

25

preacherman

on Dec 04, 2004

I was talking about all Christian denominations that profess Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and attonment for the sin of the world.

With regard to which Bible- that is a good question. I think we have more translation of the Bible in the English language, yet the Church in America seems to give more attention to satisfying the flesh than to teaching the sound doctrine from the scriptures. So an interesting question is, did we need any other translation if we not going to hear and do the one He has given us?

You know, there is a way to not live the Word of God and not be an unrepentant reprobate all at the same time.

Excellent point philomedy- I give you an insightful! That is my point, way to often Christians don't live any different than those who don't believe in God. It would seem to me that if an individual has strong enough convictions about certain issues, they have to be evident in the individuals life.

If you study out the scriptures the Apostle Paul is a good example. He had a direction in life and was enthusiastic in his course until that event on the road to Damascus. He met the Saviour. Did it change his life? In a mighty way. His whole perspective changed and so did his talk and walk. The difference is the abiding presence of Christ in the individual that has trusted in Him. You are correct in that Christianity is not a religion, but it is the life changing power of Christ living in the believer.

It is God's word that is used by the Spirit of God to influence the different life Christ desires for His children. When the Word of God is quenched, the transformation is not brought to fruition. Therein lies the importance of teaching the Word of God in the Church.

preacherman

26

philomedy

on Dec 04, 2004

Excellent point philomedy- I give you an insightful! That is my point, way to often Christians don't live any different than those who don't believe in God. It would seem to me that if an individual has strong enough convictions about certain issues, they have to be evident in the individuals life.

Many thanks for the insightful.

I hope I am not taking your second comment out of context, but I feel I have to respond to it, if for no other reason than to clarify. If an Atheist lives a decent life, and a Christian leads a decent life, and both their lives are similar, I don't see anything wrong with that. The only difference is that one of these individuals believes in God and the other doesn't. I don't see why it would be alarming, in this case, that the Christian lived like the Atheist. I don't think that "living like an Atheist" is a phrase one can universalize.

27

kingbee

on Dec 04, 2004

Some of the responses have directed the discussion about Biblical Truths mandating a nations values. Don't you think the values of a people dictate the direction of the nation... we kind'a saw it in the election this past November. The Democrates thought that the war, jobs, economics, etc.... would be the focal point of getting the upper hand and discounted that a vast majority of the people still have a high expectation for the moral issues that seem to be undermining our society, of which the marriage of homosexuals, sodimites.. or what ever a society calls them. With the overwhelming opposition, in states where the issue was on the ballet, voted not to recognize it is an indication that something fueled their beliefs. What was the source of their will?

this is, in fact, what hapened in the past election but just as it wasnt god who made honkytonk angels, he had nothing to do with hateful initatives in those 11 states in which false claims to his endorsement were used as a rallying point by cynical strategists.

the source of their will--honest tho it may have been--was a manifestation of the false prophets described in the bible. hell they didnt even bother to cloak the wolves in those commercials with sheeps clothing now did they?

28

preacherman

on Dec 04, 2004

this is, in fact, what hapened in the past election but just as it wasnt god who made honkytonk angels, he had nothing to do with hateful initatives in those 11 states in which false claims to his endorsement were used as a rallying point by cynical strategists.

I gather from your comments, it is your opinion it was the results of false claims by cynical stategist instead of the principles of God's Word that made the difference?

Concerning the false prophets- the religious leaders of the day thought Jesus Christ was a false prophet. It is amazing how blind the heart of sin can be to Truth that they would slap and spit in the very face of God.

Do you agree that we do not see things as they are but as we are? Therein lies the importance of God's Word in the church- it gives the people of God discernment.

preacherman

29

kingbee

on Dec 04, 2004

it is your opinion it was the results of false claims by cynical stategist instead of the principles of God's Word that made the difference?

i see nothing moral or valuable or even godly in advocating government definition of what is claimed to be a religious rite. more than that, the christ of the gospels strongly condemned divorce as the destroyer of marriage, yet said not a word about sexual orientation of potential partners. maybe he forgot that issue? maybe he couldnt foresee it becoming a problem?

the religious leaders of the day thought Jesus Christ was a false prophet. It is amazing how blind the heart of sin can be to Truth that they would slap and spit in the very face of God

is there any reason to conclude the religious leaders of our day arent equally blinded? judge not lest ye be judged, no?

30

Molly0597

on Dec 04, 2004

I don't think anyone can claim to follow the Word of God at all, let alone to literally follow what the Bible says. Let me explain:

The Bible wasn't written by God, nor was it written by Jesus, who claimed to convey the message of God. The Bible was written by men long afterwards who were influenced by the environment they lived in. They also wrote stories that have been proven untrue simply to convey a message. That alone means that people have to be somewhat subjective when interpreting the Bible, because they have to differentiate between fact and fiction. Then the fact that the time and environment influenced the men means that that some of the moral standards which are looked down upon today are advocated in the Bible. If we base morality on the worth and rights of others, many of the messages in the Bible about women and slaves being inferior and their mistreatment justified are immoral. Even if you look to the issue of homosexuality, I realize that it's a big unresolved issue, but I definitely see immoral standards there, to say that we should not allow gay people the same rights. Anyway, that means that when people interpret the Bible, they necessarily have to reject some of the so-called moral statements that the Bible makes, while still saying that others are good. Either that, or they have to advocate that all the moral standards given in the Bible are moral, with their only argument being that they come from God, the ultimate good, but without any actual link to universal morality.

I think I'm getting a little off topic here, but my point is that we can't ever really know what the Word of God is or advocate it because we always have to interpret different parts of the Bible individually, picking and choosing which parts we think are right or wrong. I think that it's fine for people to interpret the Bible how they wish, but it isn't okay for an entire religion to force this view on its people or even advocate it. I think that all of these interpretations should always be made individually, which is why I don't like organized religion. That's also off topic, but if you think it's interesting, you should read The Last Day. It's a fictional book about a supposed second messiah who basically advocates against a lot of the current Christian values and practices, including organized religion. I's very cool

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