DANGER! Throwing Rocks In Glass Houses

Words written with the finger of God

Published on May 6, 2005 By preacherman In Religion

In the gospel of John 8:1-11 the religious leaders brought a woman who had been taken in adultery. The question the Lord as to what should be done…

“Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?”

Most of us are familiar with this passage from God’s Word, even those who do not adhere to the Lords teaching. In this portion of God’s Word they find some consolation that Christ told the religious leaders….

“he who is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her”

I have found this to be the most quoted portion of God’s Word by unbelievers, but must add that it is used most frequently under false pretences.

We are told in the 6th and 8th verse that Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground. What do you think he wrote, and why?

preacherman

Comments (Page 2)

bakerstreet

on May 08, 2005

"He is the cause of it because He created and controls it."

I think there is the root of our disagreement. I don't believe God controls any of it, because that would violate free will. If I'm not mistaken you see the wrongs of the world as part of the overall design. I see them as the by-product of free will and simple mortality.

"God must want things the way they are, or He would change them."

I know for a fact that there are things going on in your neighborhood that you hate. If you were Ming the Merciless for a day, would you force people to live according to your view of the world, even if you knew it would make it a better place?

I don't think you would. You appreciate personal freedom too much. You see that it creates havoc, but you see the alternative as something worse. Does that make you culpable for the wrongs these people you grant freedom commit?

We tolerate a lot of perceived wrongs in our society in the name of freedom. If you are sensible enough to keep your nose out of other people's free will, you don't think God would be?

Just because He doesn't intervene in our foolishness doesn't mean He agrees with it.

bakerstreet

on May 08, 2005

"From the Christian perspective, it was Satan, not God, who bestowed this "gift" upon man, when Eve was decieved in the garden of eden."

Nah, nah, you know that she had to choose to bite the fruit to begin with. Without free will she couldn't have. Do you really think she was decieved? I don't.

"But I also wouldnt put them in a room full of toys, candy, and other desirable things that gave them pleasure, and tell them..."now now, kiddies, don't touch any of this, or I will punish you for all eternity."

It isn't what we can and can't play with, it is HOW we play with it. There are plenty of totally secular reasons that promiscuity and the rest are bad, and there are plenty of secular folks who advise the same things.

There's really nothing that we are specifically banned from, it is a matter of context. Sure, we can't commit adultery, but human history is chock full 'o examples how it goes terribly, terribly wrong. Same with any 'sin'. The punishment is built-in. God doesn't need to strike you down, the reason NOT to do it is punishment.

"Viewed in this light, free will is a curse, not a gift."

Free will is no different than a gun, or alcohol, or basic human rights. Some people abuse them. The idea that free will is a curse sounds like authoritarians who claim that rights only lead to crime and anarchy. They do, but not "only", and the world is much better with them than without.

You can say you'd lord over your neighbors, but I don't think you would. You most certainly wouldn't applaud them lording over you, any more than you'd applaud God for forcefully imposing every commandment. There just wouldn't be any merit to rules at all if there was no other choice.

The 'eternal torment' thing is seriously subjective, and tnot something I wanna get started with A&P. I believe in Hell of sorts, but most certainly not the same idea that they do.

preacherman

on May 08, 2005

I blame GOD, (the one and only) for the misery and eventual decay and death of us all, not any particular religion or its murderously zealous adherents.

Minor correction _whip in your doctrine..... SIN "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

If that's not the epitome of cruelty, then I don't know what is.

Not cruelty _whip.... helplessness and dependance on a sovergin God.

Oh, little_whip,You illiminated 'free choice'. Oh, the joys of being a moral relativist. Sort of like a philosophical kameleon. One minute you are all over there the next over there, I hear a little bell. Ding, ding, ding.....third time out. Human nature in whichever cabinet it is displayed amounts to the same, it is evil. We are at the Mercy of God, and thank God that there is mercy to be found at the cross.

Hey aeryck, you're getting better using your own discussion. I am proud of you!

Do you really think she was decieved? I don't.

The scriptures says she was deceived. Sorry _whip I have to use the scripture.

I really do think you have missed the whole purpose. god created man with the free will to obey or disobey God. the fact that Adam & Eve disobeyed is a revelation that man is born in sin, which I think you (_whip) enjoy because you can inturn blame God.

I am, however, enjoying this conversation, and the fact that you alone seem to be able to discuss these things in first person, as YOU see them, rather than endlessly quoting scripture that I find dubious at best, and ludicrous at worst.

You know today is Sunday and you know what this preacher does on Sunday's. Sorry I have not been participating in the discussion, but allow me to close this thread with this thought. If have have misunderstood what I am about to expound then I will be the first to apolgize, but we will let the readers decide for themselves.

little_whip the only time you give any credence to a sovergin God that created this universe it is always flavored with blame. You wnat to blame Him for any and everything that you think is not right. On the other side, you seem to find more tolerance for the arch enemy of God, the prince and god of this world, that old serpent, the devil....satan. It seems to me that if you had to choose to live with one or the other, it would be the other, correct.

To you point

This sounds remarkably like the Christian description of Heaven, and if its truly like that, I can not imagine a more boring place to be.

At the rate you are headed my dear you will be with the other. Just remember eternity is a long time.

I hope everyone is proud of me..... I did not quote one verse of scripture! But if anyone wants me to give the scriptural support for the positions I have stated, rest assured I have it ready.

preacherman

bakerstreet

on May 09, 2005

"3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Maybe it is nitpicky on my part, but I don't see her being decieved. She admitted that God told them not to eat of the tree, and she did it anyway. It wasn't as if the Satan said "Oh, God told me He changed his mind and to go ahead, it's okay." Her sin was disobedience, and she knew she was disobeying when she did it.

We aren't bound to obedience because we are afraid of the punishment, and evidently the fear of death was the only thing keeping her from disobeying.

Instead of deception, it appears that Eve was following God's commandment only out of self-interest. Granted, it's a matter of perspective.

"I hope everyone is proud of me..... I did not quote one verse of scripture! But if anyone wants me to give the scriptural support for the positions I have stated, rest assured I have it ready.

I would hate to think I helped influence you to stop quoting when you felt it important to. By all means quote if you like, but the reason I come to your blog is to hear what YOU have to say, even if it is about something that has already been said in scripture.

preacherman

on May 09, 2005

would hate to think I helped influence you to stop quoting when you felt it important to. By all means quote if you like, but the reason I come to your blog is to hear what YOU have to say, even if it is about something that has already been said in scripture.

I do appreciate you dropping in baker. It is just hard for me to discuss spiritual stuff and not use His Word.

I believe I will take the liberty then to use God's Word, for It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path as we traverse this sod.

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear lest by any means as the sepent beguiled (satan's deception) Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Satan is wiley in his temptations and the child of God that lacks spiritual direction from God's Word is open to his deception.

I see them as one and the same, and embrace both

bakestreet, my case in point... satan desires to be like the Most High and is looking for any of creation that will believe such.. massive deception, eh?

preacherman

aeryck

on May 09, 2005

Maybe Jesus wrote, ' Who cares about a few puny rocks, ......I am the CORNERSTONE.'

James said,'For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.'

I agree, with you preach, satan definitely tempted/beguiled/deceieved Eve, and she obeyed his words, which were not the word's that God has commanded adam, she bought into satan's lie. This lie is the foundation of all copycat-kingdoms......you are everything you wanted to be already, just as long as you don't buy into the Christian lie of that seed that is going to come and crush the head of the serpent...etc.....just keep that out of your mind.

The point is that Jesus is the rock of offence, and whoever is offended by him, will find themselves crushed along with satan on the judgement day. However, if one acknowledges the CORNERSTONE, and bows before Him now, then one will be granted safe passage to eternal life, and not be damned to Gehenna.

Taking out the parts of the bible, that refer to God as being Holy, because you prefer to carry on living in sin, is what satan did. You merely prove your ownership by following this way. In other words you are creating an excuse for a god, one of your own making,that fits in with your own lifestyle, changing him whenever you are confronted with your sin, rather than submitting to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It is interesting to note that if you read on in the Scripture where the text is derived, you will eventually find that Jesus, informs the Pharisees, that they are children of their father the Devil. Whenever we seek to make God's Word say what it does not, simply because we will not confess and forsake our sin, we will find ourselves coming against Jesus of Nazareth. He is the Chief Cornerstone, so what are a few rocks?

preacherman

on May 09, 2005

mercy rejoiceth against judgment.'

Can we say amen to that? AMEN

Taking out the parts of the bible, that refer to God as being Holy, because you prefer to carry on living in sin, is what satan did. You merely prove your ownership by following this way.

This is what I was refering to aeryck in your article "what seperates us". I agree whole heartedly with your definition of the church (the Body of Christ), what I was referenceing when I said the church, was the organization, not the organism, as our friend and brother C. Larkin has described.

Do you think that the church, (the organization) has been so careful not to throw rocks that they have comprimised the true teaching of God's word for a gospel that brings Christ without acknowledging ones sin and a word that promotes prosperity instead of holiness?

In other words you are creating an excuse for a god, one of your own making,that fits in with your own lifestyle, changing him whenever you are confronted with your sin, rather than submitting to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I see so much of this truth, not only in the world but even in the church. Please allow me to qualify, some churches.

It is interesting to note that if you read on in the Scripture where the text is derived, you will eventually find that Jesus, informs the Pharisees, that they are children of their father the Devil. Whenever we seek to make God's Word say what it does not, simply because we will not confess and forsake our sin, we will find ourselves coming against Jesus of Nazareth. He is the Chief Cornerstone, so what are a few rocks?

I can not imagine anyone arguing with this, at least those who name the name of Christ. preach

bakerstreet

on May 09, 2005

"Whenever we seek to make God's Word say what it does not, simply because we will not confess and forsake our sin, we will find ourselves coming against Jesus of Nazareth.

More condemnation from "war is wrong" aeryk, who condemns God's own acts in favor of his own philosophy. God made war, aeryk says that war is wrong, so God must be wrong to aeryk.

Before you start lugging stones at folks for "making God's Word say what it does not", you might wanna see to your own eye. If you want to discard the old testament in favor of your own hippie silliness, feel free, but don't condemn others for making what THEY want out of it...

thatoneguyinslc

on May 09, 2005

Actually Preacherman, you were right to assume that i was talking about people commiting atrocities in the big guy's name. Not that he was smiting millions from the heavens.

I used to have a t-shirt that summed up my feelings. It said....

"Jesus, protect me from your followers"

Also, Baker? All kinds of atrocities have been commited in a lot of different deities names over human history. Were talking about christianity here. Not dictators like Mao, or other religious groups.

Hitler and Stalin were just numeric examples.

bakerstreet

on May 09, 2005

"All kinds of atrocities have been commited in a lot of different deities names over human history. Were talking about christianity here."

No doubt, thus my pointing out your bias and hypocrisy for condemning Christianity for what is simply a HUMAN propensity.

Humans have twisted every possible philosophy into an excuse to commit genocide. You and others around here, though, seem to have a need to blame Christianity for any wrong committed by Christians.

I'd like to see you go onto someone's pro-Communism blog and offer an unsolicited whine that Communism is somehow to blame for the hundred million or so that it's followers have purged. It wasn't Stalin's fault, blame communism.

If I said that, you'd immediately point out that there have been oodles of work-a-day Communists that have never committed genocide. Is it a blind spot in terms of Christianity for you, or just hateful bias?

thatoneguyinslc

on May 09, 2005

So you are saying that the crusades were concocted by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do than to slaughter muslims and jews?

And that the inquisition was just a wacky misunderstanding?

WOW. Ever hear of the Roman Catholic Church? Mother Church also looked the other way during the Holocaust if you desire a more recent example.

And i see that you are also dabbling in mind reading. Nice. It was the system that allowed Stalin to commit those atrocities. Please, stop the spin cycle ok?

In case you didn't know Baker, I'm an ordained minister.(non-practicing at the moment) I am aware of the atrocities commited in the name of christianity moreso than the next guy. I just don't stick my head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen.

bakerstreet

on May 09, 2005

See, you just did it again. I don't care if you are an ordained minister or an ostrich, you look silly telling ME to get my head out of the sand.

Your "Crusades" silliness might work with most folks, but I majored in History and minored in Lit, and anyone who had a basic Western Civ class could see through your simplistic, BIGOTED perspective. "Christianity" was as much to blame for the Crusades as Mormonism was to blame for the atrocities committed during the history of the Mormon Theocracy of Utah.

People of all cultures wear hats. People of all cultures commit atrocities. Perhaps if you could see through your own bias, you'd realize that perhaps it isn't the hats to blame.

People use ANYTHING as an excuse. When you blame the Catholic church for the crusades, you just validate their own excuses. If we discarded religion altogether, there wouldn't be any less atrocity, we'd just find another excuse.

thatoneguyinslc

on May 09, 2005

I'm not saying that we should disregard religion. That's where you are wayyy off track here Baker.

All that i am saying is that folks like you act as if the history of christianity is unblemished. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. You say that it is the individual that is responsible for atrocities. OK, i can see your point to a certain extent. But when it comes down to it, the Holy See could have put a stop to it. Did they? Nope! they let the killing continue, and in fact, encouraged it to continue. All in the name of Christianity. The utter hypocricy of your statements is astounding. And quite disappointing i might add.

What you need to do is get off your moral high horse and do a little research. Open your mind to the possibility that just maybe...Just maybe the role of christianity in world history is at best "a chequered past". That doesn't mean that it always will be. I hope someday that all christians will realize that theirs is not a perfect religion. And no others are as well. Then and only then can christianity throw off the shackles of their bloody past.

But if you still insist in living in some perfect christian dreamland, that's your right.

preacherman

on May 09, 2005

More condemnation from "war is wrong" aeryk, who condemns God's own acts in favor of his own philosophy. God made war, aeryk says that war is wrong, so God must be wrong to aeryk.

baker, what are you smoking? It appears that you are reading but not comprehending. A clouding of the mind my friend.

in favor of your own hippie silliness, feel free, but don't condemn others for making what THEY want out of it...

Hey this is borderline offensive for two reasons.
1. I used to be a hippie.
2. I agree with aeryck

Actually Preacherman, you were right to assume that i was talking about people commiting atrocities in the big guy's name. Not that he was smiting millions from the heavens.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought I understood what you were saying but come on oneguy, surely you can not blame the ignorance of peoples action even if they do profess to do it in the name of God.

I'm an ordained minister.(non-practicing at the moment)

What church and why not practicing?

See, you just did it again. I don't care if you are an ordained minister or an ostrich, you look silly telling ME to get my head out of the sand.

Baker, chill man. You appear to be losing control? You seem to be under a lot of stress, if I have mis-read, please forgive.

preacherman

preacherman

on May 09, 2005

Nope! they let the killing continue, and in fact, encouraged it to continue. All in the name of Christianity.

I hope everyone reading this blog understands that all of this killing that has been mentioned was not endorsed by Jesus Christ!

aeryck, I am really disapointed that no one has been reading your post on the Prince of Peace. The Love of Christ!

preacherman

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